Ah.
Here: one-two midair kick that succeeded at registering in the final version...
The Sasuke vs Orochimaru episode 30 cut: one-two midair kick that failed at registering in the final version.

Hitorio said:
Ah.
Here: one-two midair kick that succeeded at registering in the final version...
The Sasuke vs Orochimaru episode 30 cut: one-two midair kick that failed at registering in the final version.

I don't think that was a one-two mid air kick in the Orochimaru. More like entering with a kick and using the other leg to bounce/push off Orochimaru's blocking. Both seem successful to me tbh...

PLasmaghost said:
I don't think that was a one-two mid air kick in the Orochimaru. More like entering with a kick and using the other leg to bounce/push off Orochimaru's blocking. Both seem successful to me tbh...

Check out my reply in that post https://sakugabooru.com/post/show/4198 for more details, but:
whether that second leg was a kick or just a push-off, it didn't seem successful to me because the physics of a push aren't contained in the drawings, so it doesn't look like Sasuke's bounce was powered by his leg; it looked like his leg was just kind of there while his body repelled itself from some other force.
There's usually a frame that shows the pushing force happening, and a separate frame showing the receiving mass's response to that pushing force while it's pushing (I'm simplifying and generalizing). What happened in the cut we're talking about is like:
Frame 1: Guy in a cannonball squat position in the air above the ground (about to extend his feet to the ground to jump)
Frame 2: Guy's legs extended; they're touching the ground
Frame 3: Guy's legs are in the same position but now he's in the air
Not sure if you've experimented in that particular way when you've animated, but if not, open up Flash and try that shit out. It looks like it makes sense on paper (which is why it's a common mistake), but it will look "off" in the exact way Norio's second kick looks "off." :P

What you seem to be calling a mistake I think is an intentional display of motion. You're describing is a very different type motion/action/mood than what the animator may have been going for.
Again, I think it works perfectly fine, and here's why:

If you were to animate that push off if gives a very realistic sense of force and gravity, as if the person doing the motion is straining themselves in order to counteract the impulse of momentum. Sometimes this is what you want (and in some cases this is actually exaggerated ) but often times in a fighting animation its actually better to play down this movement. Sasuke in this scene is a ninja and at this point in the series is at his absolute prime, it would stand to reason that as an animator opting to make his movements seem light and quick would work, rather than to have him look as if hes exerting force against orochimaru's block. (Imo is flows rather nicely). This same instance of "omission of force" can be seen in many of Masahiro Sato's flips too. It does a great job of making the action seem expert, calculated, acrobatic, and effortless.

Considering that both Norio and Masahiro are experts in this sort of action I find it hard to believe that they both regularly make this error when animating.

also, its not really a '"push" off and away'. its more like hes redirecting his momentum by taping his foot on orochimaru's arm. If you've ever tried free running, try running at a wall and then jump at it while taping your foot against it, you go back and upwards with very little exertion of force because you aren't acting against it so much as just redirecting it.

tl:dr It seems more like he's describing a wholly different motion than what you think he should have... but it feels, to me, deliberate, and thus an artistic choice rather than an 'error'.

Oh, no; I'm not describing an exaggerated, weighty type of push-off. You and I have the same idea of how Sasuke's ideal motion is intended to be here. Quick. Light. Tap-ish. I am actually talking about the same type of downplayed movement that you are; I'm also saying that the genga alerted me to Sasuke's posing indicating that it was probably intended to read as a push-off and not a negation of momentum like what you mentioned in the freerunning example.

Here:
Frame 1: https://i.imgur.com/j9Zw9mK.png
Frame 2: https://i.imgur.com/zW1RJYb.png
Frame 3: https://i.imgur.com/J7kce2e.png

Taking your freerunning example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-IE1hbiIlE

1) In this freerunning example, it is a light tap, but it still displays the physics of a push, like what I'm talking about. Look at it frame by frame and it displays the leg touching the wall while bent, then touching the wall while extended, showing that the leg is generating the force, though it is brief.

2) In Norio's second Sasuke kick, look at the difference between frame 2 and 3. There are two things that differ from the freerunning idea of him just tapping off of Orochimaru's arm:
2a) If he was just purely canceling his motion, you would not see Sasuke's body extend away from Orochimaru so drastically like it's doing from frame 2 to 3. You would see Sasuke's center of gravity remain generally where it is in frame 2 while he began to flip/rotate on his way down.
2b) Since Sasuke is, in fact, extending away from Orochimaru, it's implied that his leg is the cause of that kinetic energy. Unlike in the freerunning video, though, there is no frame that shows Sasuke's leg generating that force causing him to move backwards. All it would've taken was one frame that showed the extension of his leg against Orochimaru's arm. Instead, we got Sasuke's leg not shown to have extended (it's still bent, meaning his quads did nothing, but Sasuke's body is moving backwards anyway).

I still think the cut flows nicely and smoothly, mostly because that second kick has such little kinetic presence that it blends in with Sasuke's many poses as he recovers for his next melee flurry.

Considering that both Norio and Masahiro are experts in this sort of action I find it hard to believe that they both regularly make this error when animating.

It doesn't have to be regularly, but very fundamental mistakes like these can and do happen. To anyone. Correct me if I'm wrong; were you saying this from a pedestal bias that the title of "expert," "master," or "professional" entails? I know you study art with a hunger and drive I can relate to, so I think it's surprising that you'd speak with the pedestal in mind... if that's what's happening; lemme know if it's not.
LeBron James airballs, y'know? :P

I don't know why you're so adamant about those kicks being a mistake

Cobbles said:
I don't know why you're so adamant about those kicks being a mistake

Let's not mistake the number of my replies for how strongly or rigidly I feel about it. It's just consistency.
I value learning, leveling up, and clarity. Stubborn-ness blocks new information from enriching your expertise. If someone addressed my reasoning and provided some more on-point insight, I'd be like: "o sweet" and that'd be that.
I just haven't had a single comment yet respond to my point, instead mistaking my point to be something else. I think I should've led these discussions with much deeper levels of detail, leaving no room for misinterpretation and able to be skimmed without leaving questions.

I like how this functions as a kind of genga-layout comparison

I made a swf to clarify what I'm talking about: http://sta.sh/01lt3j7fkmjo Hopefully links work here. I apologize for the long post, but idk maybe someone else finds this stuff fun to talk about and analyze. I know I do...

(A3->4) Shows the previously kicking leg lagging behind in action. This is often used as a set up for some sort of exertion of force because it tends to look like easing when done immediately after the recoil of a previous force enacted by that limb(genuinely one of my fav things to do as an animator). This is important because it sets up this leg with a buildup of perceived potential energy. (A5) shows the how this potential energy is spent. Most notably 2 things occur here, the first is that this leg has now been swung a considerable distance, this means that this leg carries some deal of inertial force, pulling his body in whatever direction it was swung (right of frame). The second (and imo) the more important is that it was sent ROTATIONALLY as opposed to directly in a straight line.
Now you may think, 'well what did Norio do to tell us this leg is being swung out as a driving force rotationally, rather than say..being led out as a consequence of being pushed by the opposite leg?' My answer to this would be the fact that the previous 2 frames set up this leg (A3->A4) as being rotated in preparation for the preceding action. Norio could have actually kept that leg practically in place (maybe continue recoiling it inward some more) and it would look fine, but I believe he was setting up the eventual rotational motion that would drive the next action.
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(B) Shows the Preceding "kick/push/tap/etc" in question. Its Job is significantly less important. Now, it may seem like it's intended as an attacking kick, or push of some sort, but I think that's a misunderstanding. Its action becomes a lot more clear after realizing that it isn't the driving force (thus being the lead actor) but is more of a supporter/ing-force(?). I mean, given the position that its in for (B1->B2) it really couldn't be, it just doesn't have the energy to move a whole body all that far, but if you kick it forward (like norio does) you get 1) a bit of newton's 3rd to help move him right of frame, 2) you get the extra swing for that nice rotational force,3) you can sneak in another thing for orochimaru to parry.

This foot also lags behind after the initial exertion because of a weak amount of recoil from the "kick". This is what I was kinda getting at in my first post, I don't think it was intended as really an attack(it certainly is a "kick" but the intention is different if that makes any sense), but more as a means for sasuke to rebound himself off orochimaru's hands and do points (1,2,3) above.
(I mean even just playing this over and over in flash, it all reads [least to me anyway] and looks just fine. He's not pushing off all that much because his (B) leg isn't the driving force, it's the rotation for (A) that's taking up all/most of the forces and it flows crazy well choreo wise lol)

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If you look in (C) a great deal of sasuke's rotational force/energy is expended almost immediately after the driving force frame. What this implies is that sasuke's rotation is not being 'pushed' into the spin via *HIS right leg (other wise he'd just continue spinning), but rather he's twisting his own body using the throw like motion to send himself spinning opposite.

If you look at (D) and plot his 'start point->end point' or 'his acceleration point -> acceleration expent point' he hasn't gone all that far or that high. A majority of the driving forces in his action are not lateral, but in fact rotational.It's just a consequence of Centripetal force that as a body rotates (unless it's grounded somehow) the body tends to move away in the direction the force is acting. Because sasuke isn't rotating 360(closer to 180), he moves towards the right. It's not because he's pushed himself there (at least not really) it's because he flung his feet and arms that way. If it was a 'push' off not only would the keys be vastly different, but Norio would have probably made him go a considerably farther distance (both higher AND farther away.
____________________________________________________________
******I can't stress enough ""1) In this freerunning example, it is a light tap, but it still displays the physics of a push, like what I'm talking about."" The "kick" is acting 'as' a weak push, but he's not really PUSHING. Frame (B2) is not the key of a leg pushing off, or readying to push off, or attempting to push off. It's the frame of a light kick. Also, the previous/first kick "negated" his momentum, the second 'kick/push/tap' is redirecting it backwards now via 3rd law. You jump and kick a wall hard enough ur gonna go backwards.****

*****"2a) If he was just purely canceling his motion, you would not see Sasuke's body extend away from Orochimaru so drastically like it's doing from frame 2 to 3. You would see Sasuke's center of gravity remain generally where it is in frame 2 while he began to flip/rotate on his way down."*****
You WOULD see him extend like that if sasuke was swinging his leg, upper body, and arms out in that direction. Between the 3 frames you’ve posted I don't see how you can possibly come to the conclusion that norio was attempting a pushoff. A kick (as I thought you were seeing based off your first post) certainly, because frame 1 looks like the set up to a kick, and 2 looks like the kick itself, but between these 2 frames nothing leads me to believe that 2 was meant to be sasuke in pre push off position, and 3 an actual push off extension of the leg. I mean just look at the way his hips turn between frame 1 and 2, with his (B) leg following suit frame 3. It’s all done to get the appropriate rotation in his body

I don't even see what most of this has to do with your original post that insinuated that between the 2 cuts one set of kicks didn't register. The two instances of 'kicks' have very different jobs. Naruto's were ACTUAL kicks/attacks, sasuke's was a means to rebound himself off of a block so he wouldn't get smacked away like naruto does in his cut. It definitely registers as a 'kick' because we're both calling them kicks. But where as you think it should be an actual PUSH, im saying its a kick that was used to the same effect as a push(and was successful).Idk, Everyone seems to see the two kicks, and I don't know anyone else that feels as though sasuke seems to just incomprehensibly repel away from orochimaru like you do so it seems to have resonated well enough for everyone else.

***"There's usually a frame that shows the pushing force happening, and a separate frame showing the receiving mass's response to that pushing force while it's pushing (I'm simplifying and generalizing)." What you're describing here is a legit "Push off with you legs", but i'm unclear because from what I see other animators do, and do myself, the pushing off happening frame, and the force received frame are typically the exact same frame...(see; *1 and *2)

______________________________________________________________________
Also ...Le Bron air balling is a completely different matter for a number of reasons I wont make this post longer to list. I'm not using their mastery as the crux of my argument here, but it stands to reason that if not one, but many people well versed and successful in a given subject do X, its a safe bet that there is some value to doing X. I'm not saying its not a mistake because their masters, I'm saying they're masters because they don't tend to make those mistakes(hence masters). Or would you really argue that a complete novice and a master are both equally as likely to make a mistake? Due to this I'm willing to give benefit of the doubt to Norio and say his choices were deliberate, especially since they aren't even all that complex decisions...

Good shit; you addressed my actual point, which is refreshing.

Now we are simply in disagreement about how those physics went down, which might surprise you.
I'll write my long response on an external site and link it here when I'm done in a couple/few days ("days" so that I don't deform my schedule).
EDIT: Discord'd you instead. A long response might be counterproductive.

Random curiosity; does anyone here animate?

I know PLasmaghost and I do. Can't speak for anyone else.

Nice! Got a link? Super interested in seeing what you guys make!

There's actually dozens of animators on the site, both professional and (not to imply they're any worse) amateur artists.

mikmakraw said:
Nice! Got a link? Super interested in seeing what you guys make!

-Awesomesauce! :P
Ah, you meant on this whole site and not just in this comment thread. I don't know many, but I know a couple off the top of my head:
-PLasmaghost's got some animations on this site under the tag jalin_harden as well as some sweet drawings on his tumblrs (google his username). Far as I know, he hangs around Hyun's Dojo a lot - like many users on this site whose usernames I recognize who are also animators and love that sakuga touch.
-spencer_wan, who's a professional now, but who used to animate and talk animation on a small forum of ours and MSN several years ago.
-As for me, I'll have something presentable for you and this site in... what, a month or two? Until then, I'll just be passionately at work on the path to mastery.

EDIT: Looks like it'll be more than that month or two.

Wait, Matsumoto was animating digitally in the year 2002?!
Wait, what?!

Hitorio said:
-Awesomesauce! :P
Ah, you meant on this whole site and not just in this comment thread. I don't know many, but I know a couple off the top of my head:
-PLasmaghost's got some animations on this site under the tag jalin_harden as well as some sweet drawings on his tumblrs (google his username). Far as I know, he hangs around Hyun's Dojo a lot - like many users on this site whose usernames I recognize who are also animators and love that sakuga touch.
-spencer_wan, who's a professional now, but who used to animate and talk animation on a small forum of ours and MSN several years ago.
-As for me, I'll have something presentable for you and this site in... what, a month or two? Until then, I'll just be passionately at work on the path to mastery.

Thanks! Very solid works. I'll upload as well.