Elmer's awkward to look at, but Bugs isn't too shabby. The lifelessness of the layout/camera is pretty distracting, though. Using the coloring to build a faux-dramatic tone would have helped, too.

It's pretty funny how Elmer's legs pop in and out of being animated and not animated, too. :P

What's the problem with the layout? It's framed perfectly. Elmer shouldn't move or emote too much because the focus is on Bugs.

I like long cuts as much as the next guy, but here it is distracting. Cutting to different and more personal camera positions would highlight the emotion of the scene, not to mention do something about how distractingly lifeless Elmer is. I think this is case of thinking too much like an illustrator of a single image and not an animator or filmmaker.

JacobYBM said:
I like long cuts as much as the next guy, but here it is distracting. Cutting to different and more personal camera positions would highlight the emotion of the scene, not to mention do something about how distractingly lifeless Elmer is. I think this is case of thinking too much like an illustrator of a single image and not an animator or filmmaker.

Elmer as a whole looks terrible compared to Bugs. Not talking about the long ass cut either (as that's something I've seen in many a form of media). But the way he's drawn looks bad. He looks lifeless and stiff, not helped by the legs changing between being animated to animated with him every few seconds. (Also don't like the Tumblr nose he's got going on, but that's besides the point)

I get this was when they were starting to work the kinks out, but even for 1940 standards (and especially for Tex Avery) this looks wrong.

Though that does lead me to ask, and this might sound prude (and off topic), but is there any American animation you actually like, Jacob?

Anihunter said:
Though that does lead me to ask, and this might sound prude (and off topic), but is there any American animation you actually like, Jacob?

Commercially? Probably not. I love Who Framed Roger Rabbit, not as animation and perhaps not even entirely as a film. I remember liking the first Justice League (before being rebranded as Justice League Unlimited) the last time I watched it. Again, not as an animated work or really even much as television outside of the hour-long format it went for.

I like Yankee Doodle Daffy and Foghorn Leghorn stuff, but only from an acting and writing point. Otherwise I feel like the work is still immature.

I liked the backgrounds from the 1992 Batman animated series, but the layouts and animation are almost always painful, so I can't really say I like it as a filmmaking work using the medium of animation, either.

There's a lot of confusion and lack of development in our industry which has only continued to compound over the years. Dropping the ball in the switch over to television animation is definitely something that we have yet to get over.

JacobYBM said:
Commercially? Probably not. I love Who Framed Roger Rabbit, not as animation and perhaps not even entirely as a film. I remember liking the first Justice League (before being rebranded as Justice League Unlimited) the last time I watched it. Again, not as an animated work or really even much as television outside of the hour-long format it went for.

I like Yankee Doodle Daffy and Foghorn Leghorn stuff, but only from an acting and writing point. Otherwise I feel like the work is still immature.

I liked the backgrounds from the 1992 Batman animated series, but the layouts and animation are almost always painful, so I can't really say I like it as a filmmaking work using the medium of animation, either.

There's a lot of confusion and lack of development in our industry which has only continued to compound over the years. Dropping the ball in the switch over to television animation is definitely something that we have yet to get over.

Or in other words, nothing, correct?

As an aside, what about Japanese animation these days (I know about the Jury's out on DBS, of course)? I personally think that most tend to ebb close to the same production values as American shows, just with more instances of better animation. And tbh, I generally tend to see little to no difference when it comes to layouts/storyboards between the two most of the time.

Anihunter said:
Or in other words, nothing, correct?

As an aside, what about Japanese animation these days (I know about the Jury's out on DBS, of course)? I personally think that most tend to ebb close to the same production values as American shows, just with more instances of better animation. And tbh, I generally tend to see little to no difference when it comes to layouts/storyboards between the two most of the time.

Dragon Ball Super has good layouts and storyboarding, but with the animation in such a disasterous state--to say nothing of the absolutely terrible musical score--it is a real mess of a series. Other series I'm following include Re: Zero, Pokemon and New Game! Re: Zero has occasional good action animation and layouts, but it's greatest strength is it's voice work, scripting, and Rem. All of the girls are drawn with exacting love, speaking louder than dialogue ever could. The most important thing about filmmaking is making sure just how constantly happy or passionate you are is always conveyed. This is where Re: Zero and New Game! succeed most. What's the point in watching something were the production staff seem so goddamned soulless? Art is first and foremost about teaching us about how others feel. The more we understand them, the more we can understand ourselves. New Games! production staff make two things entirely clear: they are in love with its characters. Passionately. Sexually. Happily. Second, those characters their ideal selves: they struggle, but because they have each other and unbound optimism they are able to make it through the harsh realities of adulthood. The vibrant drawings, animation, layouts and coloring express something I can only liken back to the climatic scene in Mr. Holland's Opus, where Richard Dreyfus' character is finally able to open up to his son with a light orchestra.

Pokemon more often than not has bad layouts and animation, but Iwane Masa'aki and Asada Yuuji have carried that series for so long and so consistently that it is impossible to not call it one of animation's biggest highlights.

I've watched my fair share of US animation over the years, but nowhere have I seen the genuine integration of directing and animation as I have in Japanese animation. Where to show something, when not to show something, the precise use of sound or the combination of sound with an ambiguous camera angle to leave an emotion up to interpretation...that is the strength of using animation to make film.

Right now, the US is only making animation--and not even themselves!--whereas Japan is using animation to make film. It's entirely arrogant to say "I know better," but it's silly to be critical while holding back what one actually thinks. Beating around the bush isn't going to get us onto the next page, after all. On that line of thought, I propose that this shot really is too long and flat, thus making it feel oddly dead, rather than lively and passionate, despite the number of drawings allotted it.

Show some respect, guys. You're not criticizing a modern cartoon but a pre-WWII one. Do we really know what animation and cinematography are like in early 40s?

Most of the major US studios (let alone outside US) hadn't mastered realistic anatomy and structure yet in 1940. This is no doubt one of the best personality scenes you can get in 1940, and one of the most significant scenes in the history. Bob McKimson was doing realistic stuff the hard way. He didn't use as much "shortcuts"(stretch/squash and overlapping) to achieve realistic animation as Disney animators always did, fully showing his understanding of human anatomy. You really got to have guts to try things like this.

Sure neither McKimson nor Schlesinger Studio was in their heyday. It had flaws, Elmer's action around '6 and '23 was kinda of staggery, and the assistanting/inking wasn't as good as Disney's. I'm not sure if you mean "bad" by this, otherwise it looks decent for me. McKimson definitely would perfect his approach of realistic animation around 43-44 under Clampett's direction, and of course with better assistanting/inking.

Even cinematography of live-action films didn't improve much until the then upcoming Italian neorealism or French New-Wave, so I don't really understand your critique on the cinematography of this scene, using minute-long shots to emphasize character acting was a common thing back then. Changing color sounds like some over-used tricks in recent cartoons, sometimes it sure helps but might be too drastic to fit in this specific film. If you care more about camera angles and editing, you'd better check Frank Tashlin or Shamus Culhane's stuff rather than Tex Avery, since Tex Avery is more of a heavily gag-centred director. But that doesn't mean Tex Avery was doing it wrong, it's just your personal taste.

I hate people criticizing old animation with little to no understandings of history. I just get enough of this ignorance.

Funny people talk about academics' arrogance towards anime while they can be same arrogant towards things they aren't familiar with, or even more arrogant.

JacobYBM said:
Dragon Ball Super has good layouts and storyboarding, but with the animation in such a disasterous state--to say nothing of the absolutely terrible musical score--it is a real mess of a series. Other series I'm following include Re: Zero, Pokemon and New Game! Re: Zero has occasional good action animation and layouts, but it's greatest strength is it's voice work, scripting, and Rem. All of the girls are drawn with exacting love, speaking louder than dialogue ever could. The most important thing about filmmaking is making sure just how constantly happy or passionate you are is always conveyed. This is where Re: Zero and New Game! succeed most. What's the point in watching something were the production staff seem so goddamned soulless? Art is first and foremost about teaching us about how others feel. The more we understand them, the more we can understand ourselves. New Games! production staff make two things entirely clear: they are in love with its characters. Passionately. Sexually. Happily. Second, those characters their ideal selves: they struggle, but because they have each other and unbound optimism they are able to make it through the harsh realities of adulthood. The vibrant drawings, animation, layouts and coloring express something I can only liken back to the climatic scene in Mr. Holland's Opus, where Richard Dreyfus' character is finally able to open up to his son with a light orchestra.

Pokemon more often than not has bad layouts and animation, but Iwane Masa'aki and Asada Yuuji have carried that series for so long and so consistently that it is impossible to not call it one of animation's biggest highlights.

I've watched my fair share of US animation over the years, but nowhere have I seen the genuine integration of directing and animation as I have in Japanese animation. Where to show something, when not to show something, the precise use of sound or the combination of sound with an ambiguous camera angle to leave an emotion up to interpretation...that is the strength of using animation to make film.

Right now, the US is only making animation--and not even themselves!--whereas Japan is using animation to make film. It's entirely arrogant to say "I know better," but it's silly to be critical while holding back what one actually thinks. Beating around the bush isn't going to get us onto the next page, after all. On that line of thought, I propose that this shot really is too long and flat, thus making it feel oddly dead, rather than lively and passionate, despite the number of drawings allotted it.

Are there any Japanese shows out there that you do think has lackluster layouts and direction? Because I'm getting this very strong bias that you think all Japanese shows have it better (Pokemon notwithstanding). Also, kinda surprised you brought up Mr. Holland's Opus, considering I took you as someone who hated all American media (considering all faults in American animation can be traced back to the film industry itself, like cinematography)

@lovecrimson. Yeah, get get that. Still doesn't mean it's not got flaws (like Elmer's legs). Besides, Jacob started it. If you want to blame anyone, blame him, considering he's the one who says all American animation is lifeless.

I hate anime fans

Cobbles said:
I hate anime fans

It can get aggravating at times, I know.

Cobbles said:
I hate anime fans

Until your hate boils with the ferocity of F. Murray Abraham's Antonio Salieri I suggest you go home and try again.

I appreciate the passionate discussion you guys have been having here, but I think that's quite enough. Any more and the comments will have to be nuked which would be a real shame.